[pmwiki-users] pmwiki layout using divs

Patrick R. Michaud pmichaud at pobox.com
Thu Aug 31 00:12:43 CDT 2006


On Wed, Aug 30, 2006 at 11:53:03PM -0500, JB wrote:
> > > Has anyone created a pmwiki default layout
> > > using divs instead of tables?
> > >
> > IIRC the Sinorcaish skin uses nothing but divs. I've been working on one
> > based on it (which I'm tentatively calling Sinorcoid) but I am not a web
> > designer and I have not yet succeeded in getting something that has the
> > features I want and renders correctly in both firefox and IE. *sigh*
> 
> I have already created a wiki with only divs using pmwiki.
> 
> What I was looking for > "the pmwiki default layout" <
> using divs instead of tables.  This means the wiki would 
> looks exactly the same as pmwiki looks when you first 
> install it.
> 
> I have tried changing the <table> and <td> and <th> 
> to <div> on a new install in the file 
> 
>    pub/skins/pmwiki/pmwiki.tmpl
> 
> and then tried modifying the css.  It appears I do not 
> know enough about css to make it work.
> 
> Anyone out there a css expert could do this?

Some history and background...

There's a reason that PmWiki's default layout uses tables
instead of divs, and that's because it's a real pain to try
to get it all to work just right using only divs and CSS.

In early 2004 I spent literally weeks trying to come up with 
a table-less design that could simultaneously achieve:
   - work well in all browsers
   - have a left and right sidebar
   - be able to use the (:noleft:), (:noheader:), (:nofooter:),
     and (:notitle:) markups
   - have floating images work properly
   - remain understandable by administrators who don't know
     a lot of CSS tricks

This last point was really what did things in -- I found I could
_almost_ get a working skin together that met the other criteria,
but anyone relatively new to HTML and CSS would never be able 
to follow it.  Since the pmwiki skin that comes with the distribution 
really serves as the initial example of how a skin is put together,
I think simplicity and understandability is more important
than demonstratining a table-less design and CSS.  

And I was tired of (literally) banging my head against the walls.

So, that's why PmWiki's default skin sticks with the table-based
layout.  I really do understand the advantages of table-less
layouts, but trying to manage dynamic content within present
browser and CSS limitations is really difficult.  Not impossible, but 
often a lot of additional effort for little additional benefit (to me).

Still, I salute all of the skins in the Cookbook that achieve
their results without using tables.  :-)

Pm




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