[pmwiki-users] Announce: Slender, pmwiki-based wiki making a fresh start

J. Meijer commentgg at hotmail.com
Fri Jan 19 19:32:12 CST 2007


Just to wrap this thread up, a handful of comments. 
 
 
! Thanks
 
First and foremost, a few people have taken their time to comment on the proposal while in its initial (hypothetical) stage. Thanks!! I do share the concerns and opinions given. Please bear with me as this thing evolves around its 2 main points (which at some point will have to stop being the same product): preconfiguration and syntax. 
 
I think it's great to have Pm recognize the opportunity for another syntax. Another significant step in the evolution of PmWiki. I'll change my wording on the page to reflect Pm's statements (of course!). 
 
Pm has always had to formulate around his responsibility for this one special syntax that requires his loyalty. That responsibility made discussion problematic, *therefore* unresponsive. Thus not by intent on the part of Pm, but because of sense of responsibility or community dynamics. 
 
 
! The opportunity
 
I feel there is a place for a a single *prominent* second syntax that departs significantly from the current. It will help balance PmWiki and also make it *unique*. With users excited about this (but not entirely convinced), having both in the same wiki,  the safest bet will be PmWiki. This may help a lot in spreading it. 
 
I too don't suppose it will become mainstream, as (as many pointed out) wikis are settling around a basic theme. Thus against the wind if you will, but that's really my kind of people. 
 
Whether or not the final syntax attracts female users or not is up to themselves to decide. I intend to remove the 'female syntax' reference in the presentation once the proposal gains body, as it'll then speak more for itself. 
 
 
! Female syntax
 
I insist a 'female user' is simply anyone that isn't a professional (and indeed feels more like a child): things should work the way users operate, not the other way round. I insist there isn't just one such mode (pm-papa-wiki), but 2 (Papa & Mama Wiki)  will do (and enable the in-between (..)). 
In time we'll probably reach the point of 'everyone his own wikisphere'. 
 
Slender is indeed supposed to have a *female syntax* (now I have semantics defined). Those who wear the word, are specially addressed, and really, empowered by the use of the word. My proposal is far from good enough. I know it can be far different, hopefully better and maybe the final ambition is just impossible. Take charge! 
 
Remarkable: my announce-email didn't have a reference to a 'female syntax' in it, yet the first to respond were indeed female users. There is indeed a need? 
 
 
 
! Header syntax
 
As far as headings are concerned, I didn't get the message I intended across (including Pm below). Nevertheless, counterpoints made and they are very much valid. I have experience with this syntax and (as with links) the pmwiki syntax isn't bad at al, just a different Holy Grail. 
 
The header syntax is supposed to operate like this:
 
  ! Normal Heading (h3), used all the time
 
  !> Less important (h4)
 
  !>> Less and less important (h5)
 
Note that there is potential for confusion here, this uses 'greater' to get a 'header indent', and 'less' to get:
 
  <! Heading (h2) that is really not within the scope of the page, but its context.. 
 
Hmm interesting..  it'll have other semantics then yet to be revealed?
Or is it just for those that like to really shout? 
 
-
 
I'll rework the pages at pmwiki.org a bit now. Please don't respond to this thread, make a topic and prepend 'slender:' (not slander) to have my attention. 
 
Thanks Pm, I hope this'll live up to your expectations. 
 
/jm
 
 
 
 
 
ps Some comments to Pm's mail follow, relevant mostly to Pm I think and making it even more lengthy. 
 
 
 
----------------------------------------
> Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:59:19 -0600
> From: pmichaud at pobox.com
> Subject: Re: [pmwiki-users] Announce: Slender, pmwiki-based wiki making a fresh start
> 
> On 1/18/07, J. Meijer <commentgg at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > For those with confidence in PmWiki but unhappy with its syntax.
> > Or those out of breath configuring it.
> >
> > Refer to http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/W7/Slender
> >
> > A proposal open for discussion.
> 
> I'm glad to see the proposal, but I have a few comments on some
> of the items written in the proposal, as well as things written
> on the W7/W7 page.    My comments are longer than I think can
> reasonably fit on the Slender-Discussion page, so I'm posting them
> here.
 
> "Pm is generally unreceptive to syntax issues.":  I can see how
> people might feel this way, but I'm not sure that it's a fair
> comment.  Part of the point, power, and design of PmWiki is
> to make it possible to create their own syntax.  The fact that
> a proposed new or changed syntax doesn't make it into the core
> doesn't mean that it can't be supported via recipes or on the
> mailing list.  In many cases it simply means that the time/energy
> resources available mean that *I* can't support it.
 
Exactly. I can't say everything, people seem to think I presume too much already. Besides, if this was my point, you're proving me wrong. I'm glad. 
 
 
 
> Note that PmWiki has been explicitly designed to make it easier 
> for someone to completely replace the core markup syntax with 
> alternates.  Simply setting $EnableStdMarkup = 0; disables the
> loading of scripts/stdmarkup.php, and then a recipe or admin
> can define a totally new sequence of markup rules, if desired.
> As far as I know, very few people have wanted to do this -- I
> suspect because the effort involved hasn't been worth the benefit.
> (Or perhaps there's something in the core that prevents it, but if
> this is the case let me know so I can remove the barriers.)
 
I've practiced my preaching. Since pmwiki 1. It's hard enough. Some things are hardwired (e.g. textvariables right now), or seemingly so. Things have really improved though, as has the overall usability and quality. Pm, has made solid design decisions that kept PmWiki on track. There is sophistication in the use of Pmwiki, it's a skill allright. Thus it's hard to say my critics are right, wrong, or just smarter then me :-) 
 
Important obstacles exist though: insert a [[Page]] somewhere in the transformation process and there you have it: syntax dependence. I can't start with a clean slate if I want certain functionality and bumping into the compromise puts people off. 
 
In time I'll show some of my work. 
 
 
 
> But in no way am I against having alternate syntaxes -- the defaults
> are simply those that I've committed to supporting with the
> resources available to me.
>  
> "Who uses [[<<]] and why?":  I've remarked many times that [[<<]]
> is ugly and I'd love to replace it with something better, but
> haven't come up with anything.  I'm definitely open to proposals.  
> The primary purpose of [[<<]] is to be able to invoke a
> "clear=all" to move content below any floating items.  If we get
> rid of [[<<]], we almost certainly need something to replace it.
 
I'll definitely start using it. It's already being extended I see.. 
 
 
> "Text indented with spaces no longer generates preformatted text.":
> I've already remarked that it will be easy to disable this
> sometime in 2.2.0-beta, I just haven't had a chance to implement
> it yet.  I'm not entirely against having leading-spaces-preformat
> disabled by default (instead of enabled as it is now), such that 
> it's a local customization option, but my reading of past 
> discussions on this topic has been that there are roughly equal 
> numbers of people on either side of the issue.
> 
> The other note that indented text connects to previous indents
> is of course already implemented in PmWiki.
> 
> "Header syntax changes to use a single ! to indicate a normal
> H3 sized header.":  As given by W3C's WAI guidelines, if <h1>
> is used for a page's title then "normal" headings really 
> ought to be at the <h2> level.  We could ore say that a single 
> ! should produce an <h2>, but I think that the doubled markup
> character is easier to spot.  (And for those who know HTML,
> knowing that !! == <h2> is a nice mnemonic.)  
> 
> Beyond that, being somewhat consistent with other markup systems
> is probably a good idea, and I don't know of any markups that
> do headings along the lines of the proposed !> (heading indent)
> and <! (heading outdent) syntax.  I think many authors would think
> the end result looks pretty weird.  For example, consider the
> following markup:
> 
>     ! heading 1
>     !> heading 2
>     ! heading 3
>     ! heading 4
> 
> In looking at this it's not at all obvious to me that heading 3
> and heading 4 are at the same level as heading 2 (not heading 1).
> Also, once I'm nested two or three levels in, how do I get back
> to the top level in one jump?
 
Explained above, just to avoid further confusion:
 
     ! heading h3
     !> heading h4
     ! heading h3
     ! heading h3
     <! heading h2
 
> "Spaces are possible in pagenames.":  As noted in 
> http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/PmWiki/RoadMap, I'm planning to
> allow pagenames to have spaces at some point in PmWiki's future --
> likely in 2.3.0.  The hard part isn't necessarily the spaces,
> but rather how to add this feature without totally breaking
> existing sites.
> 
> At any rate, when spaces are incorporated in pagenames, PmWiki
> will undoubtedly use underscores for spaces, as that's more
> consistent with what people have come to expect on the web.
 
This was indeed ill-conceived on my part, but has been a good topic for me anyway :/
 
 
> "...remove the [=...=] syntax from being used often.":  I'm
> all in favor of this.  We obviously need some form of "escape"
> syntax, but if we come up with a better one we migrate things
> over to it, and we can probably be cleaning up the existing 
> documentation to avoid it where it's no longer necessary.
 
I feel this is a definite opportunity. 
 
 
> Lastly, before designing a whole new markup syntax, keep in mind
> that there are often very good reasons for the existing markup, and
> for not designing a new markup in a vacuum.  In particular,
> it would probably be a good idea to look carefully at
> Creole (http://www.wikicreole.org/), which a lot of wiki engines 
> are adopting as a simplified wiki markup.  (In fact, having
> re-examined the Creole specification just now, I think it's
> very likely that PmWiki will offer Creole support very soon
> now, especially since most of the Creole syntaxes are already
> very close to PmWiki's defaults in many areas.  More on this
> soon.)
 
:-)
 
 
> Lastly lastly, for the record, I'm all in favor of having
> "specialized" communities within the PmWiki wikisphere
> that don't directly depend on me for support.  We see this 
> happening already with things such as ZAP, WikiPublisher, 
> WikiForms, etc., and it's what I've aspired to for PmWiki
> all along.  I can even host mailing lists and custom wiki
> installations for these specialized communities if desired.
> (This offer is also true for Slender, if it looks as though
> Slender makes it beyond the discussion/proposal stage.)
 
Demand for support may also be reduced through preconfigured wikis (distros). 
 
 
> Pm
 
never rests? 
 
 
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